[html4all.org] [HDP] Response to Review of HTML Design Principles Questionnaire (fwd)

[Robert Burns]

Hi Leif,

While I am concerned the way they apply these principles (and the way  
they equivocate everywhere even in the language of these principles),  
I think they honestly do not mean this the way you're interpreting  
it. This principle is not really related to the headers= issue. It is  
about the UA conformance criteria, which insists that UAs continue to  
support existing content.

A better way to state this (with less of their masterful equivocating  
language) would be "Strive to support all existing content". This way  
it is clearly stated as a goal and not sing the qualifier words like  
"significant" which they'll later reveal to mean not the sites you  
think are significant.

So I think they would say that HTML5 will support headers= as a UA  
conformance criteria. In other words all browsers will be expected to  
support the association between headers and data cells using the  
headers attribute (as well as other attributes and the new HTML5  
algorithm). However, they want to (or at least are considering)  
dropping headers= entirely from the document conformance criteria.  
This means authors who produce document s using headers= anywhere  
will be non-conforming with HTML5. They will get an error from the  
conformance checker for every headers= attribute in their document.

So Lachclan's example of <marquee> where it is not in the document  
conformance criteria (authros are not supposed to use it), however it  
is in the UA conformance criteria (meaning UAs are supposed to parse  
it, add it to the DOM and maybe provide some tacky styling to it; I  
haven't read how much support for marquee is in there)

I hope that is clear.

Take care,
Rob


On Aug 22, 2007, at 9:25 PM, Leif Halvard Silli wrote:

> Hi - I think most of you who have voted for the «Support Existing  
> Content» are actually against that principle - see my message to  
> public-html below.
>
> Leif Halvard
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: 2007-08-23 04:22:46 +0200
> From: Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform.no>
> Subject: Re: [HDP] Response to Review of HTML Design Principles    
> Questionnaire
>
> 2007-08-22 16:57:30 +0200 Lachlan Hunt:
>
>> 2. Support Existing Content
>
>> This principle is essential. [...]
>
>> It really doesn't matter whether a particular feature was defined  
>> in HTML4,
>> XHTML1 or not defined at all [...]  If there is significant  
>> existing content
>> on the web that relies on particular user agent behaviour, then that
>> behaviour should be specified [...]
>
> Take note, Laura and others: According to this interpretation, many  
> of those you that have sofar voted strongly for this principle, are  
> probably actually against it!
>
>> For example, <marquee> [...]
>
> While forexample headers= are allready counted by our editor as  
> insignificant, and would not be supported - not even in legacy/ 
> existing content ...
>
>> This is my proposed rewording:
>
> A new, honest, title is all this principle needs: «UAs Should  
> Support *Significant Existing* Content». Then we would have  
> understood what this is about:
>
> Statistics and percentages, again and again.
>
> By this interpreation, new UAs are allowed to ignore all parts of  
> the old HTML standards and extensions, exept those parts of it that  
> have popular support. In additon UAs are not allowed to ignore non- 
> standard extensions, if they have popular support.
>
> This way, it is actually the opposite of what it looks like: It is  
> not about which old features to support (the market decides that  
> anyhow), but about which old features UAs should have the blessing  
> to ignore: Sorry AT users, but we abide by the law.
>
> At this point, we do not even know which parts of «existing legacy  
> html» will have «legacy» status after HTML5 is ready. And no more  
> do we know which of this would be «significant».
>
> Thanks for helping me in the voting process.
> -- 
> leif halvard silli
>
>
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